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Post by Balsac on Aug 18, 2010 19:15:35 GMT -5
was a mention of taking away the ability to take someones turns or ice them to zero, i think its crazy to get rid of ice scrolls, please vote and post so they know
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Post by 13 on Aug 19, 2010 9:25:57 GMT -5
yep change is bad. fear these weirdo's with their new ideas that blaspheme against our sacred ninja traditions. lol.
as it is now, every fight is more or less a one-sided clickfest and the only way to stop someone from rezzing at will and getting up in your business is to either completely out-attack them to the extent they can't attack, or ice them to zero, both of which require some serious jutsu, and if successful lead to arguments about various supposed illicit advantages.... in reality, new players and most people in general will never be able to deal with the actions of a few ninja (with ice or other attacks) so in the end keeping ice only helps them continue to strangle the life out of the game.
to make this game successful as pvp or rpg or both, things will probably have to change, and tho ice is cool... well maybe it's more trouble than it's worth?
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Post by tmacrevised on Aug 19, 2010 23:39:25 GMT -5
taking away ice is just plain stupid, so what if you lose your turns for 1 hour, back in the day most of this game was ice wars...and now, you want to get rid of icing because a bunch of babies start crying about having no turns. Well i say that's to damn bad! Ice should stay.
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Post by tmacrevised on Aug 20, 2010 16:23:55 GMT -5
who ever voted for no more taking turns, is a complete jackass
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Post by annihilate on Aug 20, 2010 23:40:35 GMT -5
On the whole, there is no doubt in most veteran players that ice scrolls should stay. However, what sachiko says is definitely true. I vote that a certain, for lack of a better term -block- of some sort be put into place, similar to the one we had previous. That being that if you are a certain amount of levels (1/2, 1/3?) of the person icing you, they cannot ice you to 0 turns. My idea, which is NOT meant to be balanced, but simply an ideal that would be balanced later:
If you are below 1/3 the level of the ninja icing you, the ice scrolls are only half as powerful and you are always left with 1 turn. Of course, the same would apply to the weaker ninja's ice scrolls as well so as to not cause problems.
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Post by Beagle on Aug 21, 2010 16:17:27 GMT -5
The biggest issue with ice is that it prevents new players from joining the game. Why would they play a game they can't play?
The idea that maybe ice is only effective as you get higher up is an interesting one and we'll consider it.
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Post by 13 on Aug 21, 2010 17:14:44 GMT -5
like u need ice to drive away new players. if u looked at and saw what "it" really is things should be more hardcore there should be more ways to "play" (whatever i mean by that) and rely on connection speed and subsequent lag generation this is the game u already have
also i suggest making all moves cost one and health even cheaper than it is and dim maks / class changes cost half what they do and ice should be stronger!
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Post by shadow123 on Aug 21, 2010 17:45:04 GMT -5
i like all your like it 13, but stuff should only be cheaper and work better for the low levels/ noobs so the high leveled ninjas don't take advantage of them ;D
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Post by shadow123 on Aug 21, 2010 17:45:59 GMT -5
i like all your ideas 13*
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Post by 13 on Aug 21, 2010 18:29:20 GMT -5
aside from changing your own class cheaper items for weaker ninja would obviously be something people would instantly accuse one another of abusing somehow. so i agree it's an awesome idea!
plus since only clan members can give stuff it would be really a really obvious slap in the face when "honest" players see it going down. naturally since there are only a handful of users with more than a few multis, it'd be a riot. what could be more entertaining than more hypocrisy, lies, and bullshit? just another motive to firebolt someone... and it's not hard to farm gold legitimately so why wouldn't the merchant know yr a big shot (high level) and jack up the price. they do it in real life and it's not like u can attack him in the game....
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Post by Balsac on Aug 21, 2010 20:03:33 GMT -5
if you want to take away ice to help new players thats crap, they get enough help, you want to help them re write a new players start out guide, make it mandatory for them to read it before they even start to play as well, if they dont follow the guide they get a shitty start its their fault, cause anyone can get to well over level six or more just starting out and if they keep their frickin mouth shut and not talk a bunch of shit they are generally left alone till they do, i have never seen a new player iced unless they step out of line right away and think they are the shit, if they fuck that name up they can just make another account and try again.
if you want to help the new players even more make them immune to ice till after level five, just like not costing a kill point, we get to keep our ice and they get to talk shit and keep their turns
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Post by Beagle on Aug 22, 2010 14:02:55 GMT -5
Ice Scrolls aren't going anywhere any time soon, so don't stress about it too much. We need to balance other issues first, but turn manipulation is definitely going to be reduced. Gaining turns with Speed Scrolls, stealing turns with Cold Steal, removing turns with Ice Bolt and Ice Scroll, and having more turns by being a blue ninja will ALL be significantly modified as the game progresses, but there will be plenty of other changes before these things happen.
The problem with these features is that they determine who is allowed to play and for how long. Having 5k speed scrolls means you can play for hours and hours and hours, while you can easily ice a large group of players and keep them iced. So you play for 4 hours a day, and your opponents don't play at all. This is not just imbalanced but is against the idea of a game that everyone can play.
We understand the defensive value of ice and offensive value of gaining turns, and we will be maintaining and improving the offensive and defensive tactics available to players while phasing out these features that we find are detrimental to a fun game. There will be better ways of accomplishing the same effects. There will be more activities than just basic combat, the whole game will be getting deeper. We're not going to remove turn manipulation unless we've already made the game more fun and have more things to do.
But this is what we're currently thinking and we're closely reading your opinions to understand what you want and how to implement it in the best way possible.
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Post by Tchalvak on Aug 25, 2010 19:19:06 GMT -5
Just FYI, some of the icing stuff is already effective only at a close level range. It's not consistent on all icing effect, if I remember correctly, though it probably should be.
Far as icing & turn taking: Turns = fighting & leveling. More turns = more fighting & leveling. Less turns = less fighting & leveling. So that, in a nutshell, is the problem with stealing turns and gaining turns, we lose the chance of a level playing ground for leveling and combat advancement.
Now the flip side: What are the benefits of icing? In a general sense, I recognize that it's a major defensive ploy in a game that doesn't have a lot of defense. That's something that we will provide alternatives to fill the gap of. Another part is the ability to "grief" other players inherent in icing. What else do you players like about icing? (that's one for you guys to answer).
Our objectives are going to be to provide defensive alternatives so that icing isn't the only choice out there... ...and to get an idea of what other aspects of icing you guys like, and provide more of that in other areas of the game.
So what you players can do for us is be CLEAR about what you find -fun- about the icing stuff, so that we can use that to shape new features for the game.
As Beagle said, we're not working on removing icing until we have alternatives in play already, which aren't even the next things on our list of things to do. I only started the discussion because I wanted to make you guys aware of the direction that things are heading down the line, because I consider that levelling of the playing field to be a necessary step to eventually get the game more and more active.
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Post by 13 on Aug 29, 2010 8:29:05 GMT -5
"we lose the chance of a level playing ground for leveling and combat advancement" this statement contradicts itself! there is nothing level about a game with levels.
2 you will never have this. there are layer upon layer of reasons, none of which are solely dependent on speed scrolls or ice attacks... true "balance" comes from variety not vanilla.
the ninja population suffers from 2 things. pvp is unbalanced and spreeing is dull.
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Post by Balsac on Aug 29, 2010 21:06:35 GMT -5
"Fight other ninja for the most kills!" thats why you take turns, cause you take kills, its competition , who can get the highest rank
but its probably a futile effort to argue for icescolls , looks like the decision has been made already, i trust you guys to come up with a better way to slow the progress of other players so that others can be the king of the hill
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Post by Beagle on Aug 30, 2010 9:47:46 GMT -5
The discussion is merely premature. Ice Scrolls will not be removed as a surprise. We can have the discussion when there are alternatives to Ice Scrolls in the game. PvP is unbalanced, spreeing is dull, true balance comes from variety, all of these are true and we're aware of them. As we implement new features, new mechanics, new content, new items, and new math, we'll come back to the topic of Ice Scrolls and we hope to develop the game to the point where everyone looks at Ice as redundant.
Don't worry about it so much. Trust us, there's more improvements to the game coming long before the day Ice disappears.
More than likely, we'll replace the Blue ninja Speed skill with something else before we touch Speed and Ice.
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Post by 13 on Aug 31, 2010 9:49:43 GMT -5
^_^ lol it doesn't matter if i trust u or not....
i just got nothing better to do than speculate and offer some divergent thought as i wait to see what u had in mind.
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Post by 965096509650 on Sept 1, 2010 12:20:54 GMT -5
seriously - tho only people crying about ice are the people who use the game for mostly chat any way - even before we iced them - all they did was chat and provide us with extra kills
its obvious to most of us that the main person bitching is the same person who is always bitching
thats why we have speed limits and other handicaps that damn near killed the game
the game was fine before - its fine now - keep changing it and sach, m4w, shadow, and all their multis can play together in a happy ninja play land
i mean how much duller can you make the game for those of us who have been here for years - already i have to spree slower than dirt because if i dont ninja 2 - 10 i try to kill give me some bull shit limit
the spreeing is so slow now that the only reason to play is to attack kill and ice other ninja - if you take away ice wtf do we do then - thank the guys for a friendly game of chat tag?
if im still to fast and my attacking wont let new players play - do i get deleted? maybe my ability to attack? maybe we shouldnt have clans because then people would team up - and that wouldnt be fair either....
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Post by 13 on Sept 1, 2010 13:42:54 GMT -5
wth? i wanted them to keep ice... and i agree now the limits are dumb, as they don't really solve any problem. and "damn near killed the game"? lol. forgive me but i haven't seen any real difference.
i repeat "i suggest making all moves cost one and health even cheaper than it is and dim maks / class changes cost half what they do and ice should be stronger!"
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Post by Beagle on Sept 1, 2010 19:51:09 GMT -5
@965096509650: We wholeheartedly agree that there are major problems with the game, and we are working to fix them. We don't like that there are so many inactive level 1 players, even if they provide fodder for experience gaining. We will make the game more fun to play by adding new features, and we will build the community by making the game easier for low level players. At some point, this will mean not being able to new players, because icing them means they can't play, and that means they don't get a chance to experience the game before they quit.
But we want to fix the game and make it more fun before we remove ice. We will not strip features from the game before we add new ones, because there aren't enough features as it is. Removing some will only make the game worse, and we understand that.
We understand that there are power imbalances because they are supposed to be power imbalances. We want players ganging up on each other, we want the rivalries, we want the domination and the killing to continue. But we want that stuff to be fun while allowing new players a chance to see what the game is all about. otherwise they quit and the community doesn't grow.
Keep airing your grievances because we want to know what you all think about how we can improve the game, and don't worry that Ice is gonna disappear in a few weeks. It won't. The game will be significantly different before Ice comes out. Let's focus on the new features and leave this argument about Ice for a later day.
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Post by 13 on Sept 3, 2010 11:43:09 GMT -5
well in games like magic, the gathering and such, balance is achieved by the existence of counter measures, some card is sick or prolific in use, other cards are made to deal with or be as good... even in rock paper scissors... rock ALWAYS pwns scissors, but then someone can just bust out the paper. it's hard to think about addressing the on the fly spamfest of live pvp without nerfing the game down to turns bein' attached to actual time, and i don't think anyone really wants that. how then could we achieve the same ends, while preserving the speed and (ab)user friendly nature of the game? whatever the answer i think that's the only way to "win" this.
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Post by Balsac on Sept 3, 2010 14:58:52 GMT -5
only way to really help the new players is by changing the way old players treat them, change anything you want and they are still going to be treated like shit, my whole goal now is the piss them off endlessly mainly cause they will be getting more assistance again.
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Post by Beagle on Sept 3, 2010 21:06:12 GMT -5
I encourage you to harass them as much as possible.
Our goal is to make the game easier for newbs and harder for veterans. We don't think there's enough fun challenges at the high level. You guys need more stuff to do, killing newbs is way too easy for you, it couldn't possibly be that fun!
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Post by meant4war on Sept 9, 2010 5:13:57 GMT -5
Heh heh heh, you would be surprised how fun it is lol.
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Post by Tchalvak on Sept 9, 2010 15:05:59 GMT -5
Well, it may be fun, but the point is that it's not really a challenge.
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Post by zenkiller123 on Sept 13, 2010 6:23:29 GMT -5
What is the activity level of ninjas below level10? I think some of them are not playing anymore.. hehe..
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