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May 20, 2007 16:02:20 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on May 20, 2007 16:02:20 GMT -5
I see you figured out combat then.
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May 20, 2007 20:33:56 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on May 20, 2007 20:33:56 GMT -5
Yeah, it's luck with the random roll and it's luck with random stat increases.
I think I'll change the way stats increase to be a set amount total, but randomly divided among the 4 stats, that could be a quick fix that made things better.
Really, combat will eventually be about predictive strategy. There's still about 3 more versions of combat to go, so it'll get better.
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Jun 4, 2007 20:05:23 GMT -5
Post by captainnoob on Jun 4, 2007 20:05:23 GMT -5
You should get like 1 point every level that can be spent either on a stat, 100 stamina right then and there, or like some amount of "health". So if you wanted, you could possibly up one stat to be uber huge but you might suck at everything else. Or you could stay ballanced but not really be that great at anything. Also, do you get xp when someone dies on you?
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Sept 22, 2007 11:50:48 GMT -5
Post by Legend on Sept 22, 2007 11:50:48 GMT -5
i like the one point to do what u want with
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Oct 27, 2007 20:09:18 GMT -5
Post by deathdepiction on Oct 27, 2007 20:09:18 GMT -5
there was the old system when it first went up that when your stamina hit a point you couldn't do anything ,and when a person attacked a player the victom would loose stamina. like battling for turns in NW1 with blue.
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Nov 1, 2007 4:26:31 GMT -5
Post by kurugi on Nov 1, 2007 4:26:31 GMT -5
There needs to be a way to earn stamina other than passage of time alone... Not to mention inventory, clans, and a most vicous feature would be cool again! And for heaven sake, WE MUST BE ABLE TO KILL OTHER NINJAS!!!!
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Nov 2, 2007 18:55:45 GMT -5
Post by thevirginmonkey on Nov 2, 2007 18:55:45 GMT -5
Silly n00bling... you can't kill ninjas, they're too fast and sneaky.
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Nov 2, 2007 19:32:07 GMT -5
Post by kurugi on Nov 2, 2007 19:32:07 GMT -5
Interesting... I remember killing thousands of them on NW1!!! Now if I could just stop them from reviving!
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Nov 4, 2007 0:10:26 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Nov 4, 2007 0:10:26 GMT -5
So, a couple points.
The first is that stamina, like turns, translates directly into the amount of time a person can play the game in order to advance their character. The ability to manipulate stamina / turns, in our view, is unbalanced. The way we see it, it's not cool for one player to be able to determine whether or not another player can play the game. It's also not cool for casual players to not be able to enjoy the game because they don't spend hours collecting something like speed scrolls and going on sprees.
The second point is death. Again, death is effectively the inability to play the game. Games aren't fun when you can't play them. It's not fun to log in and not be able to play. Sure, there was a resurrect mechanic in the game. As it turns out, that's not good enough. Death is a bad punishment for something you didn't even do wrong.
I know that these ideas were part of the NW1 experience, but more often then not, these two issues have been the heart of a lot of problems with people not being able to enjoy the game. It may be foreign to you all, but we're trying to make this game fun for everyone to play, not just the top 20 or top 40. I agree, we're not doing it the right way. There's a lot of changes to combat and the effects of winning and losing that need to happen. But NW2 won't be a game where you can play for 4 hours straight but your victims can barely play for 5 minutes.
We're open to suggestions on how to make this balanced system more interesting, but we're not going to screw over the noobs for tradition's sake.
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Nov 4, 2007 0:49:25 GMT -5
Post by kurugi on Nov 4, 2007 0:49:25 GMT -5
I get your point, and it is a good one... However, it honestly makes no sense to change the entire NW1 experience to achieve it... Why not create a "shield" utility (scroll) to prevent you from dying to the same ninja repeteadly over a certain period of time? I agree it is advisable to prevent higher lvl players from camping noobs and preventing them from playing.
Death, on the other hand, is an integral part of the game... Defeating v. death has little programming significance when you can resurrect right away... But for the fun of the game death makes all the diference in the world... Lastly, GIVE US BACK NW1 just the way it was and without fixing a thing!!!!!! 2 will never be as much fun with all these restrictions!!!! Let oldschoolers start the brawl and carnage with everyone back to lvl 1!!!! This may be the greatest thing ever! lol
But seriously, the current development of NW2 will remain flawed if you go the route of protecting noobs and inactives by penalizing the active players! It would make a lot more sense to reward active players while guaranteeing noobs and inactives that they will always have the opportunity to get more active... Again a shield feature after being killed so many times by the same ninja comes to mind... And then having to pay it back with kills or something! But the way your thinking is going, as per your post, NW2 will never make a fun game for anyone! You see, inactives don't play, active players will have no incentive to remain so, and noobs will just come in and see an inactive game and leave... It all sounds like a loosing proposition to me.
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Nov 4, 2007 10:30:59 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Nov 4, 2007 10:30:59 GMT -5
I don't see what the difference is between getting points for "defeating" someone, and letting them still play, versus getting points for "killing" someone and stopping them from playing.
We can discuss NW1 in the NW1 forum, let's try to keep the conversations separate.
The resurrection feature doesn't work. It costs kill points, which, if you don't have any, doesn't work. And it's quite obvious that people have figured out ways that even if you resurrect, they'll kill you within minutes anyway. We've had reports of people resurrecting and then immediately dying over 20 times in a few minutes. That's not a fun game. It's not a fun game if you can't play it.
We don't intend to penalize active players at all. Quite the contrary, we simply want to reward active players for playing with active players. I don't think active players should be rewarded for dealing with inactive players, but I don't want to punish them. Bounty was actually supposed to be a punishment. Turns out, that didn't work.
This discussion is still open, so please contribute your thoughts. We want this to be fun for everyone.
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Nov 4, 2007 12:00:10 GMT -5
Post by deathdepiction on Nov 4, 2007 12:00:10 GMT -5
In NW1 the bounties may have been a form of punishment, but as you said it didn't work. With NW2 why not make bounty hunting a profession that you can be or obtain with a certain amount of bounties taken in a certain time period. Only active players can obtain bounties, unless an idiot puts a bounty on some inactive player, thus active players would want bounties for the money to get gear and other essentials. Thus bounty hunting would create more activity between active players.
As for the stamina vs. kills I’m with beagle. With NW1 you can open a tab for attacking a player and just keep refreshing thus every time they reserect they get killed and can't do anything about it. There are plenty of higher level players that have been known to do this when they log on. Keeping a time based regain of stamina keeps things balanced throughout the whole game. No scrolls, books or npc's to replenish it. Although I hate the rate it refreshes at and how much one needs to level.
I would think creating a sort of sub class would do NW2 good. This is supposed to be a new NW game with new ideas and format. So you’re a temple monk by day and a ninja by night. The question is what type of ninja are you and who else knows? Assassin, espionage, bounty hunter even, secret/forbidden arts user or other such sub classes. Then take these subclasses and hide them to everyone that doesn't have the ability to obtain secret information. Espionage comes to mind now. They would have the skills to find out sub classes to a player, and if they choose to pass the information onto players without their skills to see from then on. Each sub class would have skills that they can use specific to their classes, and would be able to change their subclass, but would loose the old skills and something else as well maybe.
this would make things so clans would have to rely on different types of ninja to help them out, and if clan halls are able to be attacked then this comes in even more handy when trying to find out what type of ninja are in the other clans. All around trying to bring active players together to help one another. The only thing I see as a problem is a reason why. In NW1 you attacked a clan out of personal issues usually or because you want to out of boredom. SC attacking anyone who attacked them NB for the sake of them typing in open chat and so on. If NW2 is to be a more active and better laid out game then put some reason into why you would want to attack or ally with another clan. Items that they protect, a clan treasury you can loot, skills that you can learn and never forget, or items obtained through quests in game that are of value, but that’s my opinion on things. There should always be a reason or its just idiotic and senseless attacking.
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Nov 4, 2007 12:51:39 GMT -5
Post by Tchalvak on Nov 4, 2007 12:51:39 GMT -5
There are subclasses in NW2 already, and will be more, and they'll have more of a function than they do currently. Amusingly, they're actually there to serve the exact opposite purpose as you've mentioned, they're there to mask the players prime class (ninja, essentially) with a lie of innocence. I think that makes more sense that way around anyway. In NW1 the bounties may have been a form of punishment, but as you said it didn't work. With NW2 why not make bounty hunting a profession that you can be or obtain with a certain amount of bounties taken in a certain time period. Only active players can obtain bounties, unless an idiot puts a bounty on some inactive player, thus active players would want bounties for the money to get gear and other essentials. Thus bounty hunting would create more activity between active players. As for the stamina vs. kills I’m with beagle. With NW1 you can open a tab for attacking a player and just keep refreshing thus every time they reserect they get killed and can't do anything about it. There are plenty of higher level players that have been known to do this when they log on. Keeping a time based regain of stamina keeps things balanced throughout the whole game. No scrolls, books or npc's to replenish it. Although I hate the rate it refreshes at and how much one needs to level. I would think creating a sort of sub class would do NW2 good. This is supposed to be a new NW game with new ideas and format. So you’re a temple monk by day and a ninja by night. The question is what type of ninja are you and who else knows? Assassin, espionage, bounty hunter even, secret/forbidden arts user or other such sub classes. Then take these subclasses and hide them to everyone that doesn't have the ability to obtain secret information. Espionage comes to mind now. They would have the skills to find out sub classes to a player, and if they choose to pass the information onto players without their skills to see from then on. Each sub class would have skills that they can use specific to their classes, and would be able to change their subclass, but would loose the old skills and something else as well maybe. this would make things so clans would have to rely on different types of ninja to help them out, and if clan halls are able to be attacked then this comes in even more handy when trying to find out what type of ninja are in the other clans. All around trying to bring active players together to help one another. The only thing I see as a problem is a reason why. In NW1 you attacked a clan out of personal issues usually or because you want to out of boredom. SC attacking anyone who attacked them NB for the sake of them typing in open chat and so on. If NW2 is to be a more active and better laid out game then put some reason into why you would want to attack or ally with another clan. Items that they protect, a clan treasury you can loot, skills that you can learn and never forget, or items obtained through quests in game that are of value, but that’s my opinion on things. There should always be a reason or its just idiotic and senseless attacking.
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Nov 4, 2007 15:39:58 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Nov 4, 2007 15:39:58 GMT -5
Actually Tchalvak, I think the word subclasses is the only sticking point here. deathdepiction basically said exactly what we had been planning on. He's saying classes are "monk" and "fisherman" and the subclasses are "fighter", "spy" and "assassin". Our words have been the opposite, classes being "fighter", etc and subclasses being "monk" etc. But he's saying exactly what we were thinking about.
I agree with a lot of what you said DD. There has to be a reason to everything. We're working on putting those reasons into the game.
Thanks for the great feedback and we'll keep working towards it.
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Nov 4, 2007 23:39:04 GMT -5
Post by kurugi on Nov 4, 2007 23:39:04 GMT -5
Just call it a kill and leave the programming for a defeat in place then... It is just wimpy... Ninja's are supposed to fight to the death... I still think the solution of providing a shield utility or scroll would be the best solution to the problem of higher lvl's repeatedly killing noobs and low lvl's! For instance, being shielded from death to the same ninja more than 3 times in an hour or something like that... Not a big programming hurdle but truly a balanced solution to the camping issue... The problem of having to use a killpoint to ressurrrect is really a non issue... Low levels don't have to use killpoints to resurrect, and upper lvl's know better than to have their kills at zero... But if thyat is so problematic just let everybody resurrect whenever they want w/o having to spend kill points! I don't see what the difference is between getting points for "defeating" someone, and letting them still play, versus getting points for "killing" someone and stopping them from playing. We can discuss NW1 in the NW1 forum, let's try to keep the conversations separate. The resurrection feature doesn't work. It costs kill points, which, if you don't have any, doesn't work. And it's quite obvious that people have figured out ways that even if you resurrect, they'll kill you within minutes anyway. We've had reports of people resurrecting and then immediately dying over 20 times in a few minutes. That's not a fun game. It's not a fun game if you can't play it. We don't intend to penalize active players at all. Quite the contrary, we simply want to reward active players for playing with active players. I don't think active players should be rewarded for dealing with inactive players, but I don't want to punish them. Bounty was actually supposed to be a punishment. Turns out, that didn't work. This discussion is still open, so please contribute your thoughts. We want this to be fun for everyone.
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Nov 5, 2007 0:51:58 GMT -5
Post by jonesat on Nov 5, 2007 0:51:58 GMT -5
Just call it a kill and leave the programming for a defeat in place then... It is just wimpy... Ninja's are supposed to fight to the death... I still think the solution of providing a shield utility or scroll would be the best solution to the problem of higher lvl's repeatedly killing noobs and low lvl's! For instance, being shielded from death to the same ninja more than 3 times in an hour or something like that... Not a big programming hurdle but truly a balanced solution to the camping issue... The problem of having to use a killpoint to ressurrrect is really a non issue... Low levels don't have to use killpoints to resurrect, and upper lvl's know better than to have their kills at zero... But if thyat is so problematic just let everybody resurrect whenever they want w/o having to spend kill points! I don't see what the difference is between getting points for "defeating" someone, and letting them still play, versus getting points for "killing" someone and stopping them from playing. We can discuss NW1 in the NW1 forum, let's try to keep the conversations separate. The resurrection feature doesn't work. It costs kill points, which, if you don't have any, doesn't work. And it's quite obvious that people have figured out ways that even if you resurrect, they'll kill you within minutes anyway. We've had reports of people resurrecting and then immediately dying over 20 times in a few minutes. That's not a fun game. It's not a fun game if you can't play it. We don't intend to penalize active players at all. Quite the contrary, we simply want to reward active players for playing with active players. I don't think active players should be rewarded for dealing with inactive players, but I don't want to punish them. Bounty was actually supposed to be a punishment. Turns out, that didn't work. This discussion is still open, so please contribute your thoughts. We want this to be fun for everyone. their trying to get rid of the powerleveling, not enable it, thats why the cost for resurrection is there
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Nov 5, 2007 7:55:18 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Nov 5, 2007 7:55:18 GMT -5
We're discussing solutions last night to this problem.
One solution that might work is that if you defeat a ninja, he looks dead to you but not to anyone else. If you kill a ninja, then YOU are shielded from that ninja for X amount of time, or until some conditional is met, like maybe you're protected from that ninja for a day, unless you attack one of his clan members.
What do you think about that?
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Nov 5, 2007 8:18:38 GMT -5
Post by jonesat on Nov 5, 2007 8:18:38 GMT -5
We're discussing solutions last night to this problem. One solution that might work is that if you defeat a ninja, he looks dead to you but not to anyone else. If you kill a ninja, then YOU are shielded from that ninja for X amount of time, or until some conditional is met, like maybe you're protected from that ninja for a day, unless you attack one of his clan members. What do you think about that? so if you were to kill all the active players at reset, you would be invincible while you spree for the day because they cant get you back?
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Nov 5, 2007 9:43:52 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Nov 5, 2007 9:43:52 GMT -5
Well no. If you kill all the currently active players, you wouldn't be able to kill them again, because you killed them. However, there won't be a "reset" like in NW1. A "dead" player would be unable to attack you for 24 hours. If they got back on before you after that 24 hours, they could kill you. Also, there could be other ways for them to be allowed to fight back, like I said, perhaps if you attack a clan member, or maybe they could sacrifice some stamina praying for revenge or something.
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Nov 5, 2007 9:53:12 GMT -5
Post by kurugi on Nov 5, 2007 9:53:12 GMT -5
Beagle I just don't get why you guys insist on taking away the confrontation from a game that is supposed to be based precisely on that? Rather than preventing people from playing so that they don't lvl too fast, why not make lvl's mean a little less? You had the right idea on NW1 when you attempted to solve that issue with inventory features such as Dim Maks, etc... Waiting 24 hours for revenge is an awful lot of time... Also, on NW2 once you use your stamina you have to wait 2 or 3 days for it to replenish enough to "defeat" a ninja or two... I can't stress enough how anti fun not being able to play when you want is... At least on NW1 you could steal bounties and buy speed scrolls to lessen those awful restrictions...
In Jonesat's example, for instance, you would have to be inactive for a month in order to accumulate enough stamina to kill all the active players... How can waiting a month to play an hour be fun? Get my point? And the player killed has to wait a day to get you back? No way! To have a fun game you must be able to play and have people go after one another... Protecting noobs and inactive at the expense of that is going to kill the fun of the game... I have an idea, make a feature where after some point ninjas that have been camped by higher lvl's get a chance to play Ikuro to take away lvl's from their nemesis! See? That is fun thinking... If you take away the capability of being pricks to one another there is no fun... You should be thinking of giving us more chances to be pricks to one another, and enough tools for the noobs and inactives to get to be pricks too no matter their lvl!
Can you imagine that feature on NW1? Jonesat and myself would be losing lvl's on a daily basis to the amusement of everyone else! lol
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Nov 5, 2007 17:43:05 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Nov 5, 2007 17:43:05 GMT -5
I agree, 24 hours for revenge is too long. But I don't get some of your reasoning: It costs 10 stamina points right now to attack and kill a ninja. You get more stamina every 5 minutes. So even if you only got 1 stamina per minute, you could kill a ninja every 10 minutes. Also, the point of the game is absolute rivalries. So why should there be a huge pool of inactive drones for you to level against? That's not rivalry. Rivalry requires that you interact with people that are active. The biggest problem with NW1 is that we get hundreds of signups every month, but people stop playing after a few days because they're aren't enough active people to play against, and the active people are all higher level than them, and they just brutalized, because once their dead, they have to resurrect and heal up, and without enough gold to heal, they end up using their turns, and then they get iced or cold-stolen, and then, they can't play for another day or so. The goal here is for active players to have active players to fight that are a challenge, and to give people a chance to get into the game and enjoy it. We want the veterans to have MORE gameplay, not less. We just don't think that clicking on 300 inactive players is actually a game. So, if we don't wait 24 hours for revenge, what if we did this. You defeat a player. He looks "dead" to you, but can still play. A public message will be displayed that you defeated him. He can attack you whenever he wants, but if he does, you can attack him back right away. If he doesn't attack you, you can't attack him again for 24 hours. We want to keep track of how many times each person defeats you and how many times you defeat a person, so you can start to see just how much you hate jonesat in terms of numbers. Of course, that will never reveal the true quality of the hate, but it might help when trying to measure the quantity. Does any of this sound like you might be able to get behind it?
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Nov 5, 2007 18:11:26 GMT -5
Post by kurugi on Nov 5, 2007 18:11:26 GMT -5
Yes sounds a lot better, but must still insist that you call it kills instead of defeats even if the other guy can keep playing... lol Nobody likes a wimpy game! lol But certainly I am all for rivalries as long as actives are not restricted in thir play... I much rather kill other actives anyway... But when I run out of those I want to keep killing! lol
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Nov 5, 2007 20:23:24 GMT -5
Post by Jareth on Nov 5, 2007 20:23:24 GMT -5
Dude... that is just freak'in cool. Also on top of that, no more tabbing! Yeah! I look foward to the new NW2! There should be an item that costs alot of money too, so if you are defeated you can revive your self to full status and fight again. Why wait till reset.
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Nov 5, 2007 22:14:19 GMT -5
Post by jonesat on Nov 5, 2007 22:14:19 GMT -5
no beagle, i was referring to "If you kill a ninja, then YOU are shielded from that ninja for X amount of time, or until some conditional is met, like maybe you're protected from that ninja for a day, "
doesnt that mean if i were to stay up, and kill every active player on the list, they wouldnt be able to touch me untill the next day? in which case i can just kill them at reset again and be invincible to them for another day?
and lol kurugi, i have about 30,000 stamina, enough to be 1st place, it just takes to long and zzzzzz to spend them all, they've been accumulating since early in the summer when my stats became glitched. maybe if your not bringing back nw1, think someone can fix my stats so i can play that properly? tired of getting 1 point in each stat every level lol
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Nov 6, 2007 3:21:30 GMT -5
Post by kurugi on Nov 6, 2007 3:21:30 GMT -5
That is actually a good point by Jonesat...
The stamina programming also means that your rank on the list will always be ultimately determined by who was first in time creating an account on the NW2 game. The sooner you created your account the more stamina you accumulate and vice versa... So if everyone was to use up their entire stamina you couldn't pass people on the list... That is a big glitch too!
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Nov 6, 2007 13:27:13 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Nov 6, 2007 13:27:13 GMT -5
Jonesat, yes, the stats problem sucks. There should be an NW2 reset in the near future to release some new beta features.
Kurugi, yes, there is a problem with saying basically the longer you've had an account, the higher level you are. That's why we want the game to reset once every 2 months, but it's also why we're making combat a little bit more in depth. If we can add some strategy to combat, then it will be HOW you spend those points that determines your rank.
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Nov 8, 2007 13:34:17 GMT -5
Post by deathdepiction on Nov 8, 2007 13:34:17 GMT -5
If the game is about rivalry then I think the last idea Beagle put out is best. Once say captain noob attacks Jonesat he can't do it again, but then jonesat can attack him back, now jonesat can't attack captain if captain attacks... this makes rivalries better. It means if you hate the player you'll get upset if they attack you and defeat you and you'll want them to be defeated, but at the same time you could do this all day and two players could lvl eachother all day to the top of the list provided their stamina holds out. There is the first flaw I see in this sstem.
As for stamina I agree that there should be some changes. I've seen plenty of people pass me in lvl and me useing all my stamina to cetch up to the high lvl players. I'm at a constant lower lvl from all my rival players because my stamina isn't enough to get past them. If you implument quests through strictly npc's and allow their rewards for completion to be more stamina than you used to complete the quest that would make it worht while and people would do quests. You could even implument quests for npc's to put hits on players and you have to defeat that player in X time and depending on your lvl vs. theirs you get all your stamina replenished to where it was then a bonus on top of that to lvl more. that would put in more than just pure rivalry between players and would help fule the fires between all the players.
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Nov 8, 2007 15:06:17 GMT -5
Post by jonesat on Nov 8, 2007 15:06:17 GMT -5
but then i can just kill everyone at reset and be invincible...
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