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Post by Legend on Mar 24, 2009 16:17:54 GMT -5
should cost 20 like it used to and class change should cost 100 but you pick which class you change too ...
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Post by shurikendomaster on Mar 25, 2009 15:25:04 GMT -5
perhaps the code for profiles could be modified so that shuriken are default selected items rather than "your inventory". i checked it out and all u have to do is add one word, and i imagine mostly people are just gonna pick that one 90+% of the time.
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Post by Tchalvak on Mar 26, 2009 0:12:38 GMT -5
In passing:
Shuriken as default is done, will go up next release.
Class changes are cheap to make it easy to even out class inequalities, when skills break out of classes that won't really matter as much any more.
I plan to fix the stealth/unstealth issue by breaking skills out of classes, so, for example, any class would be able to buy the "sight" skill to deal with stealth more effectively.
Cold Steal is explicitly designed to prevent infinite turn gathering. Instead, it is a risky type of turn stealing that doesn't cost you anything, if you do it few enough times, enough not to get frozen. I wouldn't want to make it cost less because that would make it a powerful source of continual turn gain.
I'll make firebolt, ice bolt, and cold steal ignore stealth when I push out the next release, at least until I get the system for skills to be assigned separately from colors done.
Blazing+dueling as red should currently allow you to break past stealth as well, by the way.
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Post by S a c h i k o on Mar 26, 2009 8:30:21 GMT -5
that's alright then... tho i still suggest improving coldsteal somehow cuz at a cost of 3 you will more often than not only net 1-2 turns before you get frozen (and that's with being lucky as f$%k), and probably actually have less turns by the time you stopped using it. at a cost of one it was neither infinite nor powerful, offering a legitimate way for an honest user to supply themselves with a little more turns/work/gold/speed scrolls... but hey... lets leave that gone so only people with multis have any money and stuff... that's only the opposite of what you said you wanted, but maybe you really do have a plan.
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Post by Tchalvak on Mar 26, 2009 10:16:21 GMT -5
Except that you forget that cold steal is also offensive at the same time. I figure it's set up so that on average you can almost drain one target's turns while gaining a few yourself, try to drain more than one target's turns and you'll probably end up freezing yourself. Most importantly, you can do this after you've already used up all your turns on other endeavors, so you can steal someone's turns after having already used up all your normal turns, and freezing won't matter nearly as much. Again, once skills are things that can be picked individually, I'll re-balance costs and effectiveness of skills like these.
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Post by S a c h i k o on Mar 26, 2009 15:14:51 GMT -5
hmmm... you obviously don't go around trying to use coldsteal in fights much or otherwise. if you did it's a garbage move and blues a garbage class. why steal turns if you can't get ahead by doing it? why use a move that randomly leaves you at the mercy of your enemies and is pathetic compared to ice blast much less ice scroll? i find it hard to believe it's an issue of people getting too far ahead, when people spam ice scrolls like it's free and can just crank out bounty 5ks with or without the help of other users... and we avoid those little subjects...
also using blaze requires attacking puts you on the top of the lurker list, making it completely nonstrategic, not-hideable, less cool than other skills or items... it's nice of you to mention that blaze does that, but blaze is a horribly inconsistent move and you'll have to attack people blindly, it's useless for lower level characters to even attempt, say against myself, and still doesn't explain why firebolts should cost 3 and be useless against black ninjas.
i really envisioned u asking me to talk about this stuff on the forum as a discussion between the players (that probably just about no one would post on) rather than you just stomping on free market research, cept that thing about the shuriken, which again if you played this game, you would have been "man, why is this like this?". seriously if you already got it all planned out then why am i supposed to post this crap? if you're too proud or in the zone to take perfectly intelligent suggestions then why did you ask me for them?
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Post by S a c h i k o on Mar 26, 2009 15:22:23 GMT -5
perhaps we should just skip to talking about how this skill system that replaces colour-classes is supposed to work? and maybe what you had in mind so far for that?
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Post by aneyeillate on Mar 28, 2009 2:57:51 GMT -5
Alright... Every class should have a way of harming a stealthed ninja, so here are my Ideas. I read your 3 day old plea on the mini chat sach, lol...
Blue: -Ice Bolt should be weak like it is, but break stealth. -Cold steal SHOULD be reduced to costing 1 turn but not break through stealth.
Red: -Firebolt is powerful. Very powerful. So, I think, it should break stealth, but when it does, its damage is reduced by 50%. -Blaze would be more useful when firebolt is weakened.
White: -Raise cost of sight to 3 turns. -If Deflect doesn't break stealth it's useless.
Black: -Poison is fair enough at the moment I suppose. It's moderately deadly if used quickly. Perhaps boost its power by 25% or so. -Auto-stealth seems fine to me... -Stealth/Unstealth. Fix it? -Steal seems to be fine.
By the way, this took longer than 2 minutes sachiko, you ass hole.
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Post by Tchalvak on Mar 30, 2009 14:00:11 GMT -5
The whole "all skills cost 1 turn" thing was a side-effect of creating a minimum cost on multi-tabbing, with the attack limiter going in it wasn't needed any more and skills went back to their former costs, apart from any minor changes in costs since then.
Blue does need some stealthbreaking ability, so I've changed ice bolt to break stealth for next release (which I'll probably do today or tonight). aneyeillate: Are you saying that Stealthing/Unstealthing is currently not working for your character? A fix that I committed a week ago solved that issue for some people, but I'll re-examine it if you say that it's still not workin' for you.
Lacking any reasoning for raising the cost of sight, I don't see the point. It gives information and it breaks stealth. I'm not sure how that merits a 3 turn cost, other skills are also going to break or ignore stealth with the next release, so its uniqueness is going to be kinda short lived.
Firebolt actually won't "break" stealth, at the moment, the change that I've made just allows it to do damage -through- stealth, it won't take away stealthed status from the target. I think that that makes it a fair enough trade-off for the price vs. damage.
I've lowered the chance of freezing for cold steal, for now (7%), and decreased it's initial cost to 2 (minus whatever you gain from the target), so that should make it slightly more effective.
In general though, suggestions to raise or lower turn costs or damage need to have a solid -reason- before I'll consider doing them. Just saying "raise poison touch's damage" isn't a compelling argument.
Dim Maks are a seperate issue from stealth, stealth becoming too powerful isn't a valid reason to decrease their cost, so the changes to the skills to make them break or ignore stealth should be better solutions to the strength of stealth.
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Post by s a c h i k o on Mar 31, 2009 9:59:04 GMT -5
very cool... yeah firebolt should damage thru stealth like poison. ice blast should too, i don't see why it should break stealth so much as just ignore it. stealth isn't god mode after all... it's really more about anonymity isn't it? i'm not saying it shouldn't protect you from items, but ninjas don't have or need force fields either.
my complaints regarding firebolt were that if it didn't damage stealthed ninjas, it should be cheaper to allow for it's use in spreeing, but of the two ways to go with that, leaving it at 3 and giving it stealth killpacity is probably preferable to promoting cheap multi-tab spreeing (as much as i'm a big fan of that)
sight alone should break the actual stealth status... i talked to anni about why he thought it should cost 3 and he said, cuz it allows you to use items on a previously item-safe ninja, which is true, but i think at 2 the move already pays for this privilege and still remains cheap enough that white ninjas can spy and study.
so yeah i look forward to checking out what you've done. especially with the coldsteal, and you're probably right... with all these changes there is likely no need to mess with dims...
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Post by o k i h c a s on Mar 31, 2009 10:16:54 GMT -5
oh yeah... poison damage is perfectly fine the way it is. if you want to be the big damage fighter in a game you don't pick the thief class (seriously) if people want to do the most damage they can play red, level up a bunch and pay 3 turns.
blue doesn't really need a "stealth break" option or to kill a stealthed ninja, if they could still attack their enemies turns with ice blast then they can protect themselves to some degree, and its a totally worthy sacrifice for them if they are allowed to turn a profit risking cold steal (hope it works), which means they can work those turns into items and get the kills to buy those dims. as long as cold steal is worth the risk of being frozen then blue can be a very playable and active class right up there with black.
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Post by deathdepiction on May 3, 2009 17:20:21 GMT -5
I found out that a ninja that is a lower lvl than me, only by a few lvls granted, can kill me with two firebolts. Now I've always seen black ninja as the weakest class there is due to the fact that stealth , their only defense, can only hold out to normal attacks and poison touch is so random that it takes a minimum of 2 tries to kill a lvl one with. Firebolt has always been baised off of the lvl of the character and strength since balsacs intervention has been increased. Blue ninja have the ability to ice to 0 turns from what i understand which give them a defence if done right, black ninja have a defense against normal attacks, but no one uses normal attacks once they know the target is stealthed so can someone explain where the strength of the black ninja is?
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Post by Balsac on May 4, 2009 19:22:14 GMT -5
dont forget how annoying pick pocket is
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Post by invisistealth on May 5, 2009 9:44:44 GMT -5
maybe one day black ninjas will have pushed their mastery of the stealthy arts far enough, that you won't be able to tell if they are stealthed merely by looking at their profile. i don't know if it's been fixed yet but u can probably get someone to poison you once, and your stealthed status won't show up on yr profile (but you are still stealthed). perhaps invisible stealth should be an obtainable skill in later versions of the game? it definitely could be trouble for your enemies, and especially if they don't even know you...
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Post by overmedicated on May 13, 2009 16:44:39 GMT -5
I found out that a ninja that is a lower lvl than me, only by a few lvls granted, can kill me with two firebolts. Now I've always seen black ninja as the weakest class there is due to the fact that stealth , their only defense, can only hold out to normal attacks and poison touch is so random that it takes a minimum of 2 tries to kill a lvl one with. Firebolt has always been baised off of the lvl of the character and strength since balsacs intervention has been increased. Blue ninja have the ability to ice to 0 turns from what i understand which give them a defence if done right, black ninja have a defense against normal attacks, but no one uses normal attacks once they know the target is stealthed so can someone explain where the strength of the black ninja is? lol if you need us to explain the strength of the black ninja, then maybe you should stay red and try not to get hurt
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