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Post by kikyohimora on Dec 15, 2006 1:09:52 GMT -5
I figured with all the people on here with all your vast knolege could help a pall out lol
I have been doing research into different japanese weapons and their uses, but there is one samurai sword that illudes me as to what the reason for its design is. The name of the sword is a Jin Tachi. its a Tachi style sword, but instead of a normal curve it has a wave form to it and i know it has a specific purpose. It is known to most as a revers blade sword(seen in the anime Kenshin) the style is unique, but after 4 hours of searching for books on it and internet reasearch that led no where i turn to my fellow ninja lovers for help.
I know that a Tachi is a sword used by Shoguns of ancient japan, but this one is unique. The normal Tachi's where the well known curved blade swords. they were best used to slice an enemy and addappted for close combat after Japan turned most of its military to close combat instead of long range as when they first started seeing samurai. As the times changed so did the style of swords used in Japan. The strait edged swords known now only to what may have been ninjas where used mostly for stabing an enemy where as the Tachi's were curved and vastly superior in strength and close quarters......thought i would fill u all in on a little samurai sword history while trying to find the use for this one sword.
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Post by dtmd on Dec 15, 2006 1:55:11 GMT -5
not quite sure about what it could be used for, but i know that swords were RARELY ever used by ninja, they only used swords for entering buildings, but even then the longest one they'd use would be a tanto, which is basically a dagger. I've heard of the reverse blade sword before, and im thinking, (just out of a blunt guess) that we can simply determine the uses of this sword.
Obviously this sword had to be used for dual-sided purposes.
Also, the blunt side is wavy, probably put there to give it speed.
Im thiking that the main purpose behind this weapon was not to slice and dice the enemy (duh!) but rather to use the sword for the powerful blows delivered by blunt objects (example: Mace, Hammer, etc.) but meanwhile, maintaining the speed and accuracy of a sword.
Lastly, i think that this sword was most likely used for combat against other swords. The blunt side blocking the blade of the other sword, meanwhile the blade of yours facing the enemy allowing for a quick delivery of a slice to an opponent whilest blocking their attack.
This is all speculation. Im just trying to analyze some of the facts about the sword and speculate on what it might have been used for lol.... ;D
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Post by rihochan on Dec 15, 2006 17:18:55 GMT -5
One thing you should all understand is that often sword-smiths created blades as personal works of art or objects of theory. In other words, to see how it would work. In the case of the sai, it was meant for the police as evidenced by the blunt two-tine design to catch a sharp blade in between the tines and force it to the ground while using kenpo to disable a suspect without killing. In the case of the naginata, they wanted the reach of the spear with the cutting ability of a sword. In the case of the kotetsu they wanted a sword that was better suited for a defensive style and the nodachi for an almost entirely offensive style. That being said, most Japanese sword styles were created to be somewhat lopsided towards offence. This was due to the fact that in a melee one cannot afford to spend more than a moment or two on a single opponent. If they were caught up with that single opponent for too long they would be cut down from behind. This is also why theoretically speaking a European knight would have found himself at an enormous disadvantage against the faster moving and sharper edged blades of the samurai.
Most samurai used the spear or 'yari' as their primary weapon during the Sengoku Jidai, and afterward as peace descended and Ieyasu Tokugawa began experimenting with his new feudal caste system the mastery of the sword or 'katana' became of more importance. After the Tokugawa Shogunate's rise, swordsmanship became all for the samurai caste, and though training with 'yari' was still part of every samurai's basic training, the sword took precedence.
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Post by thecount on Dec 16, 2006 9:55:35 GMT -5
A jin tachi is pretty... Simple as that. Decoration. Worn by higher ranks, partially for decoration, partially to show their upper rank.
um... one thing though... that sakkabatou (reverse edge sword)... you do know that that's just a manga invention, right??? That type of sword never really existed. (just like many of the so called "techniques" you see in manga. It's just to make manga more interesting). The existance of a reverse edge sword goes completely against the bushido phylosophy.
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Post by kikyohimora on Dec 16, 2006 11:10:23 GMT -5
so it was just decoration, Well i figured m ost of the stuff i see in anime isn't true Count, but at the same time i wanted to know if there was any real purpose for this style of sword. There is I see, but not exactly what i expected though. I was thinking it had to do with the way u draw the sword while fighting. A different fighting style that the sword was specially deisigned for made a quick and easy way of doing things, but this helps just as much thank you count for clarifying and thank you all for your help and ideas
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Post by thecount on Dec 16, 2006 21:38:25 GMT -5
No worries... it's like the wakizashi (shorter sword next to their katana) you always see the samurai carrying. Few actually used it for battle, it was just a sign of ranking. The only samurai (I'm not talking ninja now) that really made a style of fighting with double swords is the great Musashi Miyamoto.
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Post by kikyohimora on Dec 17, 2006 1:05:13 GMT -5
wasn't it used for in doors fighting? they couldn't use a katana in doors because of its length and that limited their fighting, but with a wakizashi,i thought it was, they used in doors for close combat because it was shorter than their katana.
A samurias main weapon though at first was their spears and bows....once the enemy got to a range that those weapons were useless they switched to their swords. I think that was in the very begining of samuria though and that after a generation they switched to using mainly their swords and started to develop the Warrior Coode that they saw from futal china and other neboring countries. after this happened the Warrior Monks of Japan became a rising power.
Warrior monks were the bootists that most sterio type now days. they devolped hand to hand combat and non lethal fighting styles yet at the same time also killed for their belifs and were rivals to samuria for they also had their own armies and were equal for a time with samuria strength and combat.
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Post by rihochan on Dec 17, 2006 15:12:41 GMT -5
Kikyo... seriously that has to be the worst spelling I've seen in a post in a long time.
Anyway, one thing you have to understand about Japanese culture is that it was a culture that did not welcome outside influences. The rare exceptions were the introduction of the concept of writing, the musket, and Buddhism. Even so, they always put their own twist on things. While the Buddhist warrior monks did indeed develop the first advanced kenpo styles, they were never on equal grounds with the samurai in terms of power and influence. In fact, they were if anything ridiculously easy to manipulate by the various daimyo who sought power in the Sengoku Jidai, and that is why Nobunaga, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa made a policy of wiping them out.
After the Sengoku Jidai came the Tokugawa Shogunate wherein the art of swordsmanship was pursued with a singular devotion that resulted in the most highly developed sword styles in history. This was due to the fact that swordsmanship became a sign of status in the samurai caste as it sprang up during that age.
I'm not saying that the samurai didn't exist before then, but the Tokugawa Shogunate split Japanese society officially into the merchant, warrior, and peasant classes. Before then, it was possible that anyone could become samurai by simple virtue of surviving enough battles.
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Post by kikyohimora on Dec 18, 2006 0:08:26 GMT -5
bah spelling! At any rate, according to the sources i found. They said that samurai and warrior monks for a while were on equal ground when it came to power. One reason the emperor(one of them at least) actually joined them and became a boo dist. It seems that when it Came to Warrior monks they were a head ache for any emperor and actually had over 1500 dojo's pop up on Mt Fugi at one point in Japanese history. They seemed like they were basically the same as samurai in the weapons and armor they used. They used bows, swords and spears, but seemed more prone to bows from what i read and saw of pictures. It seemed like they practiced pacifism, but brought in anyone and they become more of an outlaw hid out with them using the cover of being religious. I don't know though. I post on here in hopes of people with better knowledge than me to set me strait and get me the background that I'm looking for. Hell, i even found a site that says there is a possibility that ninjas didn't exist and if they did they weren't assassins like most think more of a spy or other such things with normal jobs like any one else...even samurai held other jobs such as painting and other such things
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Post by rihochan on Dec 18, 2006 1:18:02 GMT -5
It pretty much depends on which era you are thinking about. During the Sengoku Jidai - the warring states period - the warrior monks' had the most influence over the Uesugi clan. However, the Uesugi were an exception, the rule was that various daimyo would bribe the high-ranked priests to provide fanatical warrior-monk shock troops to them for their never-ending grasping for power an influence. During the Sengoku Jidai and the Tokugawa Shogunate, the Emperor had next to no actual political influence. He did not have the power to protect himself from the daimyo if he started issuing proclamations, and so he was ignored except as a morale booster for whoever held the capital at any given time.
The fact is that the warrior monks lacked overall cohesiveness and so except for a few times where they incited and supported peasant rebellions, they were unable to cause any real trouble. It was true that some criminals sought sanctuary and were granted it in exchange for taking vows, but this was relatively rare as most criminals didn't have the self-discipline to survive the rather austere living of a Buddhist temple.
That being said, their overall influence in many of the peasant communities was what made Nobunaga decide to carry out a general campaign of extermination against them. It was true that his ruthless extermination of the rebellious peasants and their warrior monk leaders was what led to his betrayal and death at the hands of Mitsuhide Akechi in Honnoji. Or at least that was what it said in the history book I have here. I'm fairly sure there are other theories as to why Mitsuhide Akechi decided to betray Nobunaga, but that one seems to be the one that is commonly accepted as historical fact.
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Post by kikyohimora on Dec 18, 2006 11:39:51 GMT -5
Ah i See, wasn't it the boo dist that made up one of the first hand to hand martial arts styles, or was that just a martial arts style that they developed over time? U always see the stereo type of them with stave's or just hand to hand kicking everyones ass, but thats not true now is it? They may have been practicing pacifism, bu they did develop fighting styles which i thought were more of a none lethal style more to incapacitate a person than kill them. Sry guys.....I'm a person who loves Japan and am trying to get their history strait.
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Post by ShadoWeaver on Dec 28, 2006 1:34:04 GMT -5
well, i found a website that seems to be packed fulll of info, but the problem is its the internet and not everything u find on the net is true. www.taots.co.uk/content/view/31/27/If anyone really wants to take a look and see if its fact or fiction. I myself can't and wish i could
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Post by rihochan on Dec 31, 2006 13:24:40 GMT -5
A little extra info, the Buddhist monks were never at any time a united force. They were too busy going after each other over minor points of doctrine to ever unite. The warrior monks that attacked and provoked Nobunaga were the Pure Land fanatics.
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Post by ShadoWeaver on Jan 3, 2007 23:40:04 GMT -5
ah so this site has actuate information on it then. Well thats good to know. I'll keep that in mind then. I'm trying to build up a storyboard for something I'm trying to concoct but i needed the info to do it and wanted it to be true as i could get it with a little myth involved...the next part of my research is into Japaneses fighting styles with their weapons, the history behind that and mythology of japan if you want to lend a hand or point me in the right direction it would be very much appreciated.
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