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Resets?
Jan 17, 2006 18:08:52 GMT -5
Post by Gloomfall on Jan 17, 2006 18:08:52 GMT -5
I'm just a little why you chose to go with an almost completly level based system when it comes to the charactors and insist on resetting the charactors every 2 months to keep things balanced and allow new players to be able to have a shot in advancing as much as everyone else..
My question is, why put so much emphasis on levels and skills, and go through so many problems just to reset it at the end?
I've played games like that in the past and I felt it as more of a hassle then anything.
My idea is this, make a short leveling treadmill with a soft level cap and emphasis on missions and reputation, to the point where you can pretty much master the basics within a period of a month.. Afterwards they can gain reputation and maintain it by being active, but have a limit to how much they can get.. have advanced specialized techniques that can be unlocked through intense training that can take anywhere from two weeks to two months depending on how advanced the technique is, with the ability to further enhance their basic techniques through intense training..
My thought is to keep the illusion of progression in the game, to where the improvements they gain for their skills take exponentially longer to get and barely increase their effectiveness. That way people who have played for a year can still be taken out by someone who has played for a month or two easily enough, but it would stilll be quite of a challenge.
That way you could potentially keep the game more interesting and keep people hooked on it through means of reputation, but making it so that they can't just log on to train and then go away, because inactive players will have detrimental effects to their basic abilities and reputation.. no one likes a lazy ninja afterall.
That's just a thought on a few ideas you can use for it, because I know that resetting it every few months will cause the long term players a bit of discomfort in the fact that they'll be losing all that they have worked for.
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Resets?
Jan 17, 2006 18:53:36 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jan 17, 2006 18:53:36 GMT -5
The problem with focusing on missions is that it's single player. We want the game to be focused on the PvP aspects of play. The community is king in this game. Our current progression model is that the challenge is to figure out how to gain as much experience as possible in 2 months. The longer you've been playing, the better you'll be at progressing. As well, reputation style statistics will have both a round based and a lifetime based ranking.
We are willing to change they way the game works after we've tried it out for a bit. If it turns out that resetting the characters every 2 months is too disruptive, then maybe we'll move more toward the direction you've put forth and reset every year, or never.
At this point, we think 2 months is longer than quite a few games that we find fun to play, and therefore is a reasonable time period for players to progress. We'll closely monitor the response though, and will change based on what is best for the strength of the community.
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Resets?
Jan 17, 2006 19:32:41 GMT -5
Post by kultcher on Jan 17, 2006 19:32:41 GMT -5
Aside from any reward incentives we may implement to keep players playing from round to round, it's my intent that the game will be deep enough that you'll want to start a new character in order to experience other styles of play and skills that were previously unavailable.
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Resets?
Jan 18, 2006 0:00:58 GMT -5
Post by camilo on Jan 18, 2006 0:00:58 GMT -5
reputation style statistics will have both a round based and a lifetime based ranking. thats pretty interesting...two sets of rankings... keeps both new and old members happy. It will still give an edge to old members though, since they're "famous", but i guess its the best way to go here. Most round based games i've played do become frustrating after 2 or 3 rounds because of resets.
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Resets?
Jan 18, 2006 9:37:44 GMT -5
Post by Gloomfall on Jan 18, 2006 9:37:44 GMT -5
I just think that rather then resetting charactors, making it so they need constant "training" to maintain skills at a high enough value would allow experienced players to have a slight advantage over others so long as they don't let their skills deteriorate.. but in the end will be balanced enough to allow new-comers to catch up.
The biggest problem that i've noticed with "round" games where the game is reset every few weeks, is that if you don't play for the first week because of real life issues, then you're pretty much stuck behind everyone. The thing with round based games is that when things like this happen, your potenial is pretty much shot and there is most likely no reason to even try anymore. "Burst Play" isn't really a reccomended path that i'd go for this game, sure there are other games that do it, but most of them lose an "active" fan-base after just the first few rounds, because the desire to even try anymore becomes a bit stale.
An example of this would be Shimlar, it's a nice game and all but after your first 2-3 rounds, it's really not worth getting your charactor high level anymore, and most people just get high enough to use the chat system and sit around all day as more of a chat room then a game.
It's got appeal to new players, but that's about all you have. I would completely support a game with detrimental effects for not being active enough, and higher and higher effects as your charactor gets to a higher level, so that if you don't practice your skills they'll slowly degrade. Make it so that once you approach mastery of the skill, you can get slightly better and the degrade on the skill is so high that you need to be practicing it all the time just to keep it at that level.
Same with Reputation and Fame, you can have a lifetime fame rating that shows your highest amount of fame ever recorded, and your current reputation, which should have the same soft cap and degrade as skills.. Make it so that if you're not out constantly doing stuff and you're just sitting around doing nothing, your reputation goes down little by little. And if you're gone too long people will all but forget about you.
That would promote clans wanting active players, and players who actually care about things.
The degrade wouldn't be enough to force someone to play hours every day, but enough to where they at least need to log in 3 times a week to practice their skills and keep their reputation decent.
That's just what i'm trying to say.
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Resets?
Jan 18, 2006 16:23:07 GMT -5
Post by kultcher on Jan 18, 2006 16:23:07 GMT -5
Believe me, your concerns are understood. I actually brought up the same issue to Beagle when I first joined the project.
A few points that might help ease your mind on this topic (some of these ideas are tentative, so don't take anything as gospel): 1) As I said before, we are trying to minimize the power gap between one level and the next. With a little preparation, you'll be able to take a character significantly higher level than you.
2) The experience system is designed in such a way that play time does not directly translate into power. We'll be working on striking a balance in terms of "saving up" stamina or perhaps some sort of XP bonus in case you can't play for an extended period.
3) The game will have at least a soft level cap, and it's my current intention that players playing from Day 1 will reach the cap a relatively significant amount of time before the reset. Thus, there'll be some time to catch up, and again, even if you are several levels below the cap, you can certainly participate.
Your suggestions and feedback are much appreciated. We'll keep an eye on this issue once the game goes live.
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Resets?
Jan 18, 2006 19:26:11 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jan 18, 2006 19:26:11 GMT -5
We can learn a lot from other games. I don't think it's unreasonable when you're concerned about what happens to players who miss the first few days of a round. The game is designed to not cater to hardcore players. There's a cap to how much any player can do in a given round. With that in mind, it makes sense to say that if you don't start for one week, you get to start with one week's worth of resources, because resources are controlled, not earned.
It's not a resource gaining game. You're not harvesting ore or chopping down trees. Everyone has the same chance to play, it's how you choose to play that sets you apart.
We'll be around for a while. When we launch the game, there will be TONS of features missing that we'll be working to implement regularly. Having rounds allows us to balance these new features without ruining the game for everyone. I think that having rounds for at least the first 6 months, if not the first year, will be beneficial to everyone, veterans and n00bs alike. And as I said, we'll have a live team working on the game, taking suggestions, and if turns out we can do more to make rounds better, we will. And if it turns out we need to rethink the entire system of rounds, we'll have people on board and active ready to make those changes.
On top of that, with the launch of NW2, we will be launching a company. We plan on producing several games, and have tons of ideas for how things should work, from rounds to constant deterioration, to constant escalation, to completely new ideas on how to balance things. We can't do it all in one game, it doesn't make sense. So bear with us, if you don't particularly like the way the rounds work, help us make it better, or get on us to make a game you will like.
And by all means, keep voicing your concerns here. We want to make sure this launches with the most players being happy as we can.
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Resets?
Jul 14, 2006 10:55:26 GMT -5
Post by ShadowNoah on Jul 14, 2006 10:55:26 GMT -5
I know I'm spamming this page, and you'll probably delete this in a few days, but go ahead. Just read it first. I really don't think the idea of resets is very appealing. The way Ninja Wars is right now is just fine. I mean, the fact that long playing characters have advantage over new characters. Having people way stronger than you is part of what makes this game addicting. It forces you to strive to become stronger, and I personally enjoy that. Anyway, that's what I think. So, go ahead and read this before you delete it.
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Resets?
Jul 14, 2006 19:13:53 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jul 14, 2006 19:13:53 GMT -5
Why do you think I'd delete your post? It's a fine contribution to the discussion.
Anyway, I think that one of the big problems with the current game is that the new players have chance to compete, and older players have very little to strive for now except the next level. NinjaWars 2 will have real advancement with stats and skills. Also, another problem with the current game is that you don't get to try out all the classes without creating multiple accounts or deleting your old character. With resets, you get a better chance to try new things out.
I think you're right, the current NinjaWars would not benefit from resets, but the new game will be a lot more fun with resets.
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Resets?
Jul 16, 2006 5:42:02 GMT -5
Post by Angry Panda on Jul 16, 2006 5:42:02 GMT -5
Hey, just reading your post Beagle, (and I dont mean to be ANOTHER reset basher) and I thought, what about having multiple characters within one account? By this I mean, only one character can be ACTIVE (sorry I'm using capitals instead of italics) at a time. This meaning say; Character A is in use, then you say, I'm going to make a new character and try a new class. Character B is created, but A and B are NOT allowed to interact in any way, in fact they are invisible to each other, as while one exists, the other is frosen. To make this fair, there would need to be a penalty applied each time you swich between characters, say; all of your turns need to re-charge.
I'm not saying resets is a bad idea, I'm not even sure how I stand with the idea at the moment, but this is just an alternate to the problem you stated above.
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Resets?
Jul 16, 2006 9:02:49 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jul 16, 2006 9:02:49 GMT -5
We've thought about having more than one character per account, but we haven't yet decided how to implement that. I actually really like the way you're thinking about it and will consider that. I think that we could easily have resets and multiple characters per account.
Listen, it's ok if you guys really don't like the idea of resets. The real test is playing it. If we carry over points for veterans, and everyone can see that you've been playing for a long time, and doing well, I think it will be ok. Maybe we'll need to add more things.
One thing we've considered is an ancestry for veterans. The current plan is a reset every 2 months. But the story takes place in 6 chapters over the course of one year. If you keep the same name for your character after 1 full year (6 resets) then when the next year starts, you can change your name and start building an ancestral family tree, which would be visible to all players. This way, people will continue to know who you are, and you'll have some serious prestige.
Following that idea, we might be able to have items that are family heirlooms and noted as such, and you may lose them and find them as the game goes on. Or perhaps as the game changes slightly, we'll take some skills out and put new ones in, but with a family history, you might be able to keep the knowledge of an old skill or two, passed down through the generations.
Also, on the subject of starting multiple characters, we might be able to make some veteran synergy, that between resets, if you change classes and choose different skills, we could keep track of certain acheivements that extend your next character just a little bit. Perhaps a small stat boost at the beginning of the next few rounds, perhaps access to different skills or items, I'm not really sure, but it's definitely an idea we could work with.
I think that there's a lot of cool ideas we can implement with resets. But I also think that giving new players a chance to get into the game like everyone else is very important. I realize that this is different from a persistent world MMO, but NinjaWars is different than a persistent world MMO. I think keeping the new players coming in to NW2 active is important, because we see that we have problems with that in NW1 and I think that problem affects not just newbies but veterans as well. The more players in the game, the more fun it will be for everyone.
So like I said, the real test is playing it out. If we can't keep our players happy, then we'll extend the resets, or we'll get rid of them. However, I think one of the major problems that NW1 faces today is a race to nothing. We don't have the man-power on our development team to keep making new skills for just the higher levels. By resetting, we can always give you something to strive for beyond just the next level. That I think will be far more interesting.
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Resets?
Jul 16, 2006 20:19:43 GMT -5
Post by angrypanda on Jul 16, 2006 20:19:43 GMT -5
That sounds really good, I like the Ancestiry and Heirlooms bit. (By the way that was me above, I just couldnt be bothered logging back in when my session expired)
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Resets?
Jul 17, 2006 10:28:11 GMT -5
Post by ShadowNoah on Jul 17, 2006 10:28:11 GMT -5
I have an idea. Why don't you run NW2 for, say, about 4 months with resetting. Then have a vote available to anyone who has already played NW2, and have them vote for whether they want to keep the resetting, or not.
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Resets?
Jul 17, 2006 21:54:22 GMT -5
Post by camilo on Jul 17, 2006 21:54:22 GMT -5
Ancestries ...now thats an idea~!! mind you ... resets should be less frequent if you plan on doing such things as ancentries ... ohh i dont know ... maybe every 6 months .. resets will be necessary ... one way or another ... but too soon ... and it gets repetitive ... too long and it gets frustating of course not much can be said without a little beta-testing *wink* *wink*
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Resets?
Jul 17, 2006 22:35:47 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jul 17, 2006 22:35:47 GMT -5
We'll definitely be monitoring the game closely, but I don't think 4 months will work with 2 month resets. It will be some time before we really change things up, but again, try it when it's available, and we'll all see how it works out. I assure you it will be a lot more fun than the current game, but if resets need to change, we will change them. Stop worrying about this so much.
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Resets?
Jul 17, 2006 22:36:33 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jul 17, 2006 22:36:33 GMT -5
Yes, Camilo, beta testing is definitely necessary. Do you have something in your eye?
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Resets?
Jul 22, 2006 22:52:58 GMT -5
Post by Balsacred on Jul 22, 2006 22:52:58 GMT -5
no resets at all, it takes to long to build a good team, this is the only game i play on the internet cause it doesnt reset, i hate building up all that just to start over again
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Resets?
Jul 23, 2006 19:42:05 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jul 23, 2006 19:42:05 GMT -5
What do you mean by team? You mean a clan? The clans will survive the resets.
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Resets?
Jul 24, 2006 11:07:45 GMT -5
Post by Balsac on Jul 24, 2006 11:07:45 GMT -5
yeah but i dont want to have to start all over at level one again and no inventory and rank, with resets its more like a race to the top rather then earning it
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Resets?
Jul 24, 2006 19:12:59 GMT -5
Post by Beagle on Jul 24, 2006 19:12:59 GMT -5
As stated previously, veterans will have ranks that transcend rounds, that it, your achievments during rounds will accumulate in your rankings. There's a serious problem in Ninja Wars with people accumulating a huge arsenal of items and becoming so strong as to be unassailable. Further, we cannot produce content fast enough to keep up with the pace of advancement. If we don't reset, then after a certain amount of play time, you'll have nothing new to do, and you'll be sick and tired of the game. It's a lose/lose in that situation. We don't reset, and alienate the new players, and we can't produce content for the old players.
With resets, we can fix bugs, tweak the balance, and ensure a fair game for all, new and old. The old players will have historical ranking to prove that they did wonderful things. We're considering things like heirlooms and ancestries to increase the benefit to veteran players, but we will be launching with 2 month resets, that's not really up for discussion at this point. Too much is riding on it right now, and it's central to our new design.
If you really hate it, we'll put back the original NW and you can play that until we come out with another game.
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Resets?
Jul 25, 2006 8:25:08 GMT -5
Post by suavisimo on Jul 25, 2006 8:25:08 GMT -5
You also forgot to mention that between resets there will be changes within the gameplay, new mechanics added or taken away, changes to towns, merchants, itemization, the list goes on.
It will change as time goes on, the "reset" is only there to keep things fresh. It's not as if you will be bored.
Think of it like the diablo2 ladder season. After 3 months, dupers, scammers and hackers begin to shift the market into total chaos. at 9 months +, no one wants to play anymore because they can't trade, they can't progress and it becomes no fun. More frequent resets make for a competitive, fun experience.
Don't look at as starting from level 0 every 2 months. Look at it as "wow check out what happened inbetween the reset!"
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Resets?
Aug 3, 2006 22:58:50 GMT -5
Post by firesword on Aug 3, 2006 22:58:50 GMT -5
I have never played a game with reset before as my online gaming amount with different ones is about this many [.....] It does sound interesting though, and I'm willing to try it out. I'm sure it would get easier to deal with if you've been playing for a while.
I do have a few questions on resets still; sorry if they're repeated. - Will inventories be taken away at then end of the 2 months? (Apart from the heirloom idea, just regular stuff) - Will status in clans also be reset with the exception of warlord?
i think that's all the questions I have, once again sorry if they're repeated. I tried to analyze every post to see if they were....
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Post by Beagle on Aug 4, 2006 6:23:16 GMT -5
I think the answer to the inventory question is yes. In the name of balance, and keeping things fair at the beginning of a round, I think we'd have to.
Status in clan how? Like elected leadership? I think perhaps if we allow for elections, 2 months would probably be the election period, but otherwise, if you have a position in the clan, you should probably keep it within the clan over resets.
Resets are a balancing act. Things that would make the game unfair for new comers are out, and things that keep the veterans happy are in.
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