|
Post by captainnoob on Sept 26, 2006 14:39:40 GMT -5
I know it's great training and all to change Ninja Wars around until NW2 come out but I think it's getting a little crazy. The whole game has changed. Is it just me that thinks this? I mean, maybe it's just cause I've played for awhile, but the game seems to be losing a lot of it's challenge. It's so easy to get gold. Dims make it easy to kill anyone. Stealth is so powerful now that's it's almost become rare to see someone that isn't stealthed. The samurai finally defeated the turtle and we can attack it now. And now there's the possibility of getting extra kill points for dueling higher level players? Also, the chat board is out of control. In half an hour the entire thing gets filled up with so much non NW chat I never bother reading it, as I'm sure nobody else does either. If there's things that need to be changed, how bout adding a Ninja Wars related subject only chat board and having a separate spam board. How bout fixing the inventory so you can send more than one item at a time? How about fixing the mail so you can hit a "select all" button instead of having to go through and check all the things you want to delete? Am I the only person that thinks these are the more important aspects of the game that need fixing? The game seems to have lost something with all these changes. Now I'm not saying all the changes are bad and things should go back to the way they were. I'm saying....
leave well enough alone.
|
|
|
Post by Balsac on Sept 26, 2006 16:00:20 GMT -5
i think it is good the way it is now, if your so bored start a war with a clan you think will challenge you instead of click killin all day long. it might not be so boring if you change your style of play rather then tryin to change the game.
the chat is fine nothing wrong at all with a little non ninja wars topcis, its fun and keeps things active
stealth is great the way it is now. gives lower levels a bit more time to do things so a big ol bully like you cant go ice a level one to death for tryin to get your bounty.
|
|
|
Post by Balsac on Sept 26, 2006 17:40:54 GMT -5
then delete your account and start over, that willl
be a new challenge, you guys have achieved everything,
start over then, ninja wars 2 is comin soon so stop
your higher level complaining i really dont see any
disadvantages to you guys with the new changes
|
|
|
Post by captainnoob on Sept 26, 2006 19:55:08 GMT -5
I'm not talking about advantages or disadvantages. I'm merely trying to point out that there are still some serious things about the game that could be changed instead of going right into changing game play.
|
|
|
Post by sinistar on Sept 27, 2006 0:44:52 GMT -5
I have to say I'm really not to sympathetic to anyone who's higher than lvl 15. You guys have a much easier time in the game in general. What you don't realise is that many new players are completely turned off by the game almost from signing up. The main reason for this is because of constantly being slaughtered and no other way to make headway which creates an inability to move up. With that in mind you have to have a way to create a balance and allow lower lvls to make moves in the game. If there were no stealth or dim maks less people would be sticking around than now. Furthermore, you're always going to have less active players than active which helps everyone. Now granted you had to put in time to get there just like I'm doing. Let's face facts fellas the games gonna be no fun at all if you only have 20 or 30 hardcore players especially if they rule the game. I don't know if you noticed but getting gold makes you waste a lot of turns which isn't worthwhile to spend on speed scrolls. You waste more turns getting the gold than what you get from the scroll. It only winds up being good for healing IMO. I'm lvl 8 and it's painful when I get killed and have to waste a kill to resurrect. All I think the guys are doing is trying to make the game more accessible and fun for a larger audience.
|
|
|
Post by kenpachi on Sept 27, 2006 7:11:32 GMT -5
sin, do yourself a favor. When it comes to complaining about higher level player follow a simple rule: Shut the hell up!
|
|
|
Post by suavisimo on Sept 27, 2006 8:03:47 GMT -5
Alright settle down.
We appreciate everyone's feedback. And yes, NW has changed VERY much in the past...oh 4 months.
We do not want to turn off our veteran players. We do want to attract new players.
I'm not going to sift through the flames vs. the legitimate complaints, but I wills ay this: NW is going through an evolutionary phase, that may possibly bridge us into NW2. Those who are experiencing these changes (vets) will have mixed feelings and those who are new, will see something different, that hopefully catches their attention.
To the high levels: NW is obviously easy to you. You're at the top of the game. Granted it's well deserved. But you could use a challenge. We will try to implement it.
To the low levels: NW is obviously very difficult to you. You're just starting out and are the likely target to be slaughtered multiple times daily. We could use some freebies/pick-me-ups to help you get going.
To the rest: Keep slaughtering! We'll try to find ways to make it interesting and give you incentive to make it to the top.
I'll let Beagle and Tchalvak handle the direct considerations.
|
|
|
Post by sinistar on Sept 27, 2006 9:09:58 GMT -5
sin, do yourself a favor. When it comes to complaining about higher level player follow a simple rule: Shut the hell up! Do yourself a favor and follow one simple rule. If you don't have anything intelligent to add stay quiet. Your ignorant and unnecessary comments degrade the whole conversation. It was a perfectly civil debate until you came into it. Furthermore, I was not complaining but stating a fact. If I were that distraught about my situation I wouldn't still be playing the game a month and half in every day and leveling up.
|
|
|
Post by Tchalvak on Sept 27, 2006 9:52:51 GMT -5
As Rob says, there are aspects of "moving towards the style of NW2" in many of the changes (trying to even out class balance, making the effects of stealth work more across the board), and I would remind everyone that there are aspects of "filling in holes that NW1 created and then left around" in many of the others (Fixing the Samurai, making the Dim Mak available to more than one person).
The "dueling giving multiple kills", however, does not fall simply into either of those categories. In essence it is a broad, overall game fix that we have known the game needed for the longest time, and just hadn't figured out any smooth way to integrate it into the current setup. To summarize what the change really is in one word: "experience".
NW1 has been floundering for the longest time from the lack of this essential ingredient. You can see it in the way the newbies talk ("damn, I die constantly and it's hard for me to kill anyone!") and you can see it in the way the higher level characters get bored and leave from not enough variety and challenge. "Experience" aka "multiple kill points" helps both those situations.
1. It allows newbies more growth potential, which should give them reason to STAY, the primary objective of the change. More players are both needed and would make the game more fun for -everyone-. 2. It effectively splits the gameplay, into "cause damage without any risk" (item use) and "take higher risk for increased gain" (dueling). Currently, dueling is mostly an inefficient younger sister to attacking, which is itself an inefficient younger sister to throwing a shuriken. 3. It makes things -more- challenging for higher levels, the way a game should be. Higher level shouldn't just mean "kill 5 times as many things" it should mean "kill 5 times as efficiently", and having a higher reward on stronger ninja will do that. As a player gets higher, the ease of getting good rewards will also decrease. As well, just the increased competition from the players below trying to get ahead by killin' their betters will make things more interesting for higher levels.
So what I'm trying to say here is that yes, NW1 has been changing a lot recently, and yes this is another huge change, but this change ain't much like the others, it has a very defined and much-needed goal behind it. And I suspect that when people finally get to see the intended results, they (high level and low level alike) will find that it's a change for the better for -everyone-.
Trust me.
P.S. Try never to take newbies for granted. They're new and by definition clueless, just like we all were for that short time when we first started, but they're always needed to fill those gaps when a more established player ends up having other stuff to do in life. Try to imagine the last time you were like "how the fuck does this work?" and you'll find yourself sympathizing more with the noobs.
|
|
|
Post by captainnoob on Sept 27, 2006 10:06:23 GMT -5
OK I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm not complaining about the new changes (well I kinda am but that's not the main point). What I'm trying to say is that the aspects of the game are changing but the fundamental problems are still there. Take the game mail for example. It loads very slowly and you have to go through and check all the messages you want to delete if you've got even 1 message you want to save. It's impossible to find anything if it's after the 200 message mark because you'd have to delete the first 200 messages.
I didn't intend for this to be a flame wars of noobs vs vets. I know the game is changing and some of the stuff is really cool. And heck, the changes have kept me around just so I can mess around with new stuff til NW2 comes out. And I'm not trying to complain about the new dueling thing either. What the NW staff think is best for the game is fine by me. I'd just like to see some of the basics like inventory and mail get changed.
Also, is there a way you can track account age? Cause having something like a vet only board would probably keep a lot of us around. We're starting to grumble about all the spam in the chat board. I mean, don't you other vets miss nick and murm going at it? Heh. Anyway, please don't take this topic as an oppertunity to have a big noob vs vet argument.
|
|
|
Post by sinistar on Sept 27, 2006 10:39:41 GMT -5
I think NW guys are trying a doing a pretty good job. Capt I think you bring up valid points and since you've been here a long time you'd can quantifiably say where you think there's an issue. Bottom line is forums like these allow us to voice concerns and maybe have them addressed or better understand the motivations of the guys running the show. No one is ever going to be totally happy but I think the game will be around for a while with the way it's going.
|
|
|
Post by Beagle on Sept 27, 2006 11:34:47 GMT -5
I would like to thank everyone who's contributed to this thread so far for their interesting, well-thought out posts that address serious concerns and help us understand our players more. This is one of the most intelligent threads about a game I've ever seen on a forum.
Anyway, I'd just like to clarify a few things:
1) The biggest problem with NW1 right now, in the mind of the developers is how many new players signup and leave before getting into the game. That's why the rules and tutorials were written, and why the wiki was created. We are trying to help new players get into the game and have fun. Since the beginning of NinjaWars, the hardest level has always been level 1. In our mind, a good game gets harder over time, not easier. Sure you can become more powerful, but challenges must increase to balance that. So, Tchalvak and I determined that the best way to make it easier to be a lower level character is to provide extra benefit to players for attacking people who are higher level than them in a duel. This has two effects: first, it provides a faster way to level for those players who are lower level, and second, it makes level 1s a less appealing target to those players immediately above them, giving them a better chance to survive.
2) We are aware of various other problems with the game, but we need to hear from the players what they think is the biggest problem currently, or we will forever be doing our own thing and hoping it's right. If the mail system needs to be cleaned up a bit more than it currently is, then let's hear some more noise about that. If the ability to give more than one item at a time is the most important, let's hear some more about that. Your voices drive us to make a better game for you.
3) I don't have a problem with in-fighting between players. Obviously it's always better for people to understand each other and be civil towards each other, but if the newbs fight the vets and each group tries to get out attention to things that need fixing, I'm ok with that. What I'm not ok with is any perception that the players and the developers are at odds. We may disagree sometimes, and we may have to prioritize some issues up or down against your own opinion, but the dev team is not interested in fighting players on some ideological ground that we are gods and you are permitted to enter our playground by our tolerance. We love you guys and girls, and anything we do or say is not intended to slap you down, or fight with you over territory. If you ever feel that way about any member of the dev team, including myself, contact me immediately and let me know.
Having said all that, I think that the mail system could probably get looked at again, and the inventory system could be modified slightly to be more easy to use. We had a design, we just never followed through with it as things we deemed more important came up. So the next 3 changes that should occur to NW1, in no particular order, are the dueling/skill changes, the mail system interface changes, and the inventory changes. We'll do what we can to make things better for all players, and keep making suggestions and complaints. That's what this specific forum is for.
Thanks again to everyone for your input.
|
|
|
Post by captainnoob on Sept 27, 2006 11:50:46 GMT -5
Well I think my issues were discussed rather nicely there. I just wanted to bring things to your attention. Now, as to the issue of noobs. Maybe you could impliment some sort of "protection" against attacks for the first few days of activation. Or maybe give them the attack strength of their opponent for like the first day they play. That way they're stronger but only for a short time. I do agree that the first level is the hardest one to get. But frankly, often times it's because older players are tired of hearing noobs come onto the chat board and ask for help without reading things. And that's not something that's easily fixed. I know you guys did some great stuff with the wiki (I've still been meaning to add something in the Ninja Burger section) and the rules/faqs/about sections but unfortunately you can't make a noob read. I'll think about the issue and get back to you guys, maybe in a new thread.
|
|
|
Post by dagonundone on Sept 27, 2006 18:11:46 GMT -5
Well, to be hononst, I agree with Captain about the need for a faster way to delete messages. It does get annoying having to sort through so much Kill messages.
On the topic of noobs...well its odd for me. Captain and Nick are both vets for a long time. Me? I've been on for like maybe 3-5 months. I've climbed the ladder myself, seen the changes, and the like. Started out scrapping through the game, barely making to level 4. After that, I joined NB for a bit. Still seemed kinda pointless to me, till I talked to you guys in the chat. From there, I leveled up high. Tried my own clan, which failed badly, and then joined/helped make the Shinobi Council.
I enjoy this game, partly because its still new to me. Does spreeing get old? Yes, and quickly. Does the chat room get annoying with non related messages? Well when people fake getting drunk and such, then hell yes it does. What do I do to fill the time? Chat with the clan and plot things, and maybe mess around with Lohan or Soldi3r.
So from where I see things, the game is still fun, but could use some changes. Whatever order you wish to fix/improve on them is up to you.
|
|
|
Post by Tchalvak on Sept 27, 2006 18:12:45 GMT -5
Well, if anyone has been arguing that newbies being killed every day is an overwhelming problem, I'd have to argue the opposite. I don't think that we're against newbies dying, and personally think that it's -good- (Some dying means interaction, and it relatively quickly gets newbies involved in the revenge aspect of the game) it's only when the newbies can't get rewarded well for returning the favor, or high levels get rewarded -too- well, or newbies get punished too excessively by a fight that is a guaranteed loss that a problem really arises, and extra reward for harder targets should fix that.
|
|
|
Post by suavisimo on Sept 28, 2006 8:43:28 GMT -5
To append to Tchalvak's idea, I'd like to add that Captain and Nic should be dying at relatively the same rate as a brand new level 1.
Why you say? Beacuse it's them (singly) against all of NW. Just like it is starting out. The challenge in NW for a level 1 is very much having patience, strategy and fun with trying to get out of the target range. The very same challenge should be present to those at the top, using the same tatics at level 1, albeit much more easily.
That's where changes like dueling for more kill points, dim mak's for everybody, and stealth being global come in. It's NOT to grief the high end, but in a way it is. You've had it too easy! The more challenging for you the better, I say!
As for the external mechanisms (mail, chat, etc) those are much different (community-based) as opposed to game-based changes.
Help us prioritize by making the most noise about what is important to you. And remember, we play this game too!
Yeah and don't flame or some crap...
|
|
|
Post by sinistar on Sept 28, 2006 22:57:13 GMT -5
Like I said in another thread, I think you guys are going a good job. Anything worth doing isn't easy. I mean right now I'm about to be lvl 9 and there are some lower lvl individuals who have made it a point to start attacking me the minute i have a bounty or don't. This is a good thing because it's going to keep me challenged. Unfortunately, when you get to where capt and nic are the game is trivial. So, just keep trying to balance it guys and we'll keep fighting. All in all I think the game is good and I'm having fun.
|
|
|
Post by suavisimo on Sept 29, 2006 8:17:07 GMT -5
(hangs on "Kick Me" Sign on Nic)
(Stockpiles Dim Mak's to hand out to newbies)
Don't mind me...just a little Divine Intervention...
|
|
|
Post by captainnoob on Sept 29, 2006 9:29:48 GMT -5
(tosses sack on the ground)
(opens sack to reveal 100 dim maks)
Stock pile you say?
|
|
|
Post by thevirginmonkey on Sept 29, 2006 16:40:16 GMT -5
Well, here’s my two cents, the fact of the matter is that I probably wouldn’t even log on anymore if it weren’t for the Captain’s 10 days inactive policy. It’s not because I get bored with the game, no, it’s far from it. It’s because I’ve found the game to be abhorrently irritating over the past few months. There are n00bs constantly flaming each other in the chat, I constantly have to deal with n00bs outside of the clan trying to bum items off of me, or bounties. I’m often killed damn near the minute that I get a bounty, which makes leveling pretty impossible unless there’s only a small amount of people online. A lot of times if I go to retaliate against someone, they’re either stealthed or dead. The fact of the matter is that there is no advantage to being a higher level player other than the bragging rights. Strength almost becomes a moot point for me, because everyone revives at 100 (or 150) health and I’ve been able to kill within one or two turns with either shuriken, or by plain old attacking since about level 50 or 60.
As far as folks never logging back on soon after they create an account, well, from the people that I’ve talked to, it’s basically because the game is text based. They want shiny graphics and a 2D scroller or 3D environment.
As far as killing level 1s go, I’m going to have to agree with Nick on this one. All of the advantages go to killing level 1 players. I’m also a bit sick of the whining, I got killed probably more than most low level players, because when I joined the game Ninja Burger was at war with Azuma, and Rikimaru in particular iced and killed me often several times a day. It was a fairly regular problem until I hit level 30 or 40.
Personally I would like to see the developers actually play the game, and get to a high level themselves before they try “balancing” anything. Because if one only plays to say level 15 or 20, that’s only one perspective and viewpoint, and the last time I checked, in order to make something balanced you have to look at the whole picture, or else things are going to look lopsided in the end.
-TVM
|
|
|
Post by Tchalvak on Sept 30, 2006 23:38:25 GMT -5
*smiles*
It's hard to build a lot of replay value into a game that relies upon it's players -being- most of it's content (as NW1 does, and NW2 won't). As a result, once you get to a high level, the most interesting part of the game left to you is almost certainly going to be the social aspects of interacting with other players as opposed to the mechanics (by a high level, you've become intimately familiar with how shurikens work).
This is why leading a clan is a suitable high-level activity, 'cause it gets you more into contact with the other players.
As for gaining high level being the road to understanding the balance of the game, uuhhhhh, no. It doesn't work that way. In fact, I'd say it may be the opposite. Here's a little impromptu argument to support that claim.
- Having a lot of players tends to make almost any game more interesting. - You can only get a lot of players by keeping newbies. - Newbies are by definition playing low level, weak characters.
-> Thus, the more someone plays (or even focuses on) high levels, the more out-of-touch it'd tend to make them with the core strength of multiplayer games, which is the ability to gather larger and larger groups of players together.
So it'd probably be good if I were starting a new character every week or so and seeing what problems I could kill with the learning curve and the signup process, etc etc. (Not that I do). On the other hand, what would playing at a really high level get me? I can crunch the numbers for high levels, and can apply my experience with the game to understand how it progresses. (Actually, I'd say that once you get to somethin' like 10th, 13th, 15th level, anyone can pretty easily have a feel for how the game plays at higher levels.) Besides that, the sad fact of the matter is that the current system of levelling (spam killing level 1's) bores me with it's repetition and lack of difficulty. It's much more of a challenge to get inside people's -heads- and understand problems that they have with the game because of how they think, or how they view the game. And that challenge of how to make a text-based game more approachable to the casual viewer and the non-hardcore text-gamer is the one that newbies pose.
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily -like- newbies. By definition, my peepz are the players with the tenacity and drive to get to higher levels and stick around. But I like the potential that newbies bring with them, which is to increase the activity of the game and make it more fun for my peepz (that's you).
Take the increased activity of new/strange players as a good sign, even if we aren't quite able to develop a perfect system to cut down on the spam/flaming of discussions as fast as the players increase. That's part of the limitations that being unable to effectively expand our databases creates in NW1, and something we plan to solve with the social systems of NW2 (in this case with more private channels and the ability for people to vote down spammer and flamer's chat abilities).
Anyway, beyond just replying to your points, this all boils down to me sayin' that an experience-type addition to the game is going to be a step forward for everyone, you'll see.
|
|
|
Post by captainnoob on Oct 1, 2006 16:23:28 GMT -5
Oh here's another idea, as long as this seems to have turned into a old farts gripe thread. Since this is a texted based game, how bout actually adding more text! I'd personally like to see this as:
1) Larger profile space. 2) More descriptions of places
By more descriptions of places, I mean maybe adding like "towns". Instead of diving right into killing all players, maybe have separate towns like a "noobville" where everyone below level 5 lives. The problem I see with something like that is it might make it even easier to find said noobs and spree them. But it's just a thought. I would like to see more than just the one line descriptions of places. Or maybe make up some new npc's or something. Because currently, this seems more like a point/click game rather than a "texted" based game.
|
|
|
Post by Beagle on Oct 2, 2006 7:14:46 GMT -5
Hey Capn, we've got that in NW2. We've got a lot of that. Geography just isn't something we can fit in NW1 right now. I know, that's why we're working on NW2 a lot more than NW1. Tchalvak is doing what he can, but there a SEVERE limits on his abilities because the NW1 system is so flawed. But a larger profile space might be cool. I'll note that one down for NW1.
Thanks for all the comments again, people.
@tvm
We understand the problems with being high level. We understand the problems with being low level. The problems with being high level are almost entirely impossible to solve at this point without pissing off the majority of high level players, because high level players span such a HUGE range of levels. We can't make small changes to the game to solve the problems, we have to make big changes to give you real game changes, and NW1 is too broken to make big changes. NW2 is the big change. It will be a completely different game, and it will provide enjoyable game experiences for newbies as well as seasoned veterans like yourself.
I know it seems like we're absentees, but we're really not. It's not that we don't play, we've had this game around for a LONG time. We've seen the rise and fall great players and great clans. Trust me when I say that we're not focusing on a limited scope of problems because we've never played the high levels. We have specific goals in mind, and we're working towards them. These goals were arrived at through careful analysis of the situation, not from how we play the game, but how we have perceived others playing the game over a long period of time.
The chat board sucks right now, I know. If it was easy to implement a new private channel, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but it's not. It would be an involved process, it would open up some hidden flaws in the code, exposing us to risk, and it would probably be pretty buggy the first time through. We have an awesome chat systems in NW2. Right now, it's pretty close to being to done, just a few finishing touches, but it's not something that can be retrofitted to NW1.
We're trying our best. We're a small team, with limited time. If we do a good job, we're happy, if we lose some players in the process, we try harder. We push ourselves to the limit. And at this point, we're all trying to hold down a steady job to feed ourselves, because every hour we spend on NW1 is a labor of love, not one that will help us pay the rent. I wish it weren't so, but until we get our game company launched and start pumping games out regularly that make us some money, we're going to be highly flawed and limited individuals.
So we hope that you guys stick around, helping us to make NW1 better, helping us to make NW2 better in beta, and if you don't, we hope you'll come back to us when NW2 is released to try it out. Until then, we'll keep doing our best, and listening to your comments and suggestions to get a feel for how everything is going.
|
|